Forums - Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 Show all 73 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=19217) Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:17:2001 03:22 AM: Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 What makes a top tier? A 2nd tier? I've seen too many of these questions recently. Here's the Answer: Top Tier: Dominates at point, and on at least one other level, as well. (e.g. great assist, counter XX super, makes you choose counter chars) 2nd Tier: Dominates on one level. Is good on other levels, but not dominate. 3rd Tier: Plays well at point, has a good assist. 4th Tier: Either plays well at point, or has a decent assist, but not both. Bottom Tier: Sucks at point. Sucks on the bench. So, using those criteria, here's my tier list: Top: Blackheart, Cable, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sentinel, Spiral, Storm, Strider 2nd: Cammy, Captain Commando, Colossus, Cyclops, Dhalsim, Iceman, Iron Man, Jin, Juggernaut, Ken, Marrow, Mega Man, Omega Red, Hulk, Silver Samurai, War Machine 3rd: Akuma, Anakaris, Captain America, Charlie, Chun Li, Felicia, Gambit, Guile, M. Bison, Morrigan, Psylocke, Rogue, Ruby Heart, Ryu, Sakura, Son Son, Tron Bonne, Venom, Wolverine, Wolverine (no metal) 4th: Amingo, BB Hood, Dan, Jill Valentine, Kobun, Sabretooth, Spider-Man, Thanos Bottom: Hayato, Roll, Shuma Gorath, Zangief And yes, a good player can beat anyone with anyone. Some characters are just better, though. Feel free to ask me any questions on why certain characters are where they are. -DFA Posted by Naslectronical on 05:17:2001 03:40 AM: My rankings: Top Tier: Storm, Doom, Spiral, Magneto, Cable, Sentinel, Blackheart, Strider, Cyclops, Iron Man, Dhalsim Second Tier: Psylocke, Cammy, Capt. Commando, Juggernaut, War Machine, Iceman, Megaman, Bison, Ruby Heart, Rogue, Omega Red, Silver Samurai Third Tier: Guile, Charlie, Felicia, Hulk, Tron Bonne, Anakaris, Sabretooth, Chun-Li, Jill, Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, Dan, Collosus, Morrigan, Capt. America, Thanos, Hulk, Wolverine, Gambit, Jin Fourth Tier: Spider-Man, Venom, Hayato, Son Son, Amingo, Shuma Gorath, B.B. Hood, Wolverine(No metal) Fifth Tier: Zangief, Roll, Servbot Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:17:2001 03:55 AM: How did you figure yours out? Just off the top of your head? BTW, Dhalsim can't be top tier because he can't do dick for your team while he's on the bench. -DFA Posted by David L on 05:17:2001 04:03 AM: Its how you USE the characters, top tier dosent mean that much i bet a really good dhalsim player can take out anyone. Have you ever seen Dasrik and his brother play? THey enter tourneys and KICK ASS with double wolverine and spiderman and he placed 5th in the last jamesgames tournament which is really good. Posted by Mr. E on 05:17:2001 04:35 AM: I would put tron up to 2nd, and Hayato up to third. other than that, pretty accurate Posted by soup or man on 05:17:2001 04:45 AM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove How did you figure yours out? Just off the top of your head? BTW, Dhalsim can't be top tier because he can't do dick for your team while he's on the bench. -DFA not true. if you choose Iron Man you can throw, into a Dhalsim Yoga Flame for a free infinite, aircombo, or proton cannon. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:17:2001 06:06 AM: It's a matter of dominance. His assist, aside from a nice IM infinite setup, provides no dominance. Nobody has to change their gameplan to work around it. His DHCs are mediocre, his Team Super is nothing special, his counter XX super isn't a major concern. So, he really doesn't add any sort of dominance to a team when he's on the bench. That's why he's not top-tier. Otherwise, he would be. Oh, and about Tron: I struggled over this one. When it came right down to it, though, I asked myself "would you ever have to work out a team around her?" "Around her assist?" The answer to both was "NO," so she stays at 3rd tier. -DFA Posted by AmakusaShiroTokisada on 05:17:2001 06:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove How did you figure yours out? Just off the top of your head? BTW, Dhalsim can't be top tier because he can't do dick for your team while he's on the bench. -DFA LOL! Neither can Magneto! Posted by Mr. E on 05:17:2001 07:57 AM: mags is too dominating at point to be considered anything but second tier. Tron's projectile assist is glitched, and doesn't quite combo scale. It does something like 15% damage on main chars, and sometimes 25-30% damage on assists. That kind of damage is nothing to sneeze at. She's not bad at point, and her DHC is something like 35% nonhealable damage. Okay, fine she ain't great at point, but hell, her assist is top notch. btw, I think I've taken 25% damage from Tron's projectile super with Mag's. Not sure, but that kind of damage is freaky. Posted by elffzero on 05:17:2001 09:53 AM: according to the official DFA definitions 'zangeif should be 3rd tier not bottom.. ironbody zangeif ground assist kicks ass! and his throw assist isn't too shabby either.. and he's underated on point.. (not by much) but he's not entirely worthless like everyone seems to think.. one-on-one or w/ a good assist he has good damage potential.. Posted by Naslectronical on 05:17:2001 12:37 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove How did you figure yours out? Just off the top of your head? BTW, Dhalsim can't be top tier because he can't do dick for your team while he's on the bench. -DFA Dhaslim's assists are good if you use them in combos. Magneto and Strider's assists also suck as well. Dhalsim in my opinion contributes enough on point to where his assists don't matter, the same with Magneto and Strider. Posted by silenttiger on 05:17:2001 01:22 PM: I don't know if I truly have an opinion about the tier system. I think there is validity in it because obviously some characters have been enhanced while others have been severly watered down (i.e., wolverine). I do think Iceman should be in the last spot of the first tier. People say he is second tier because he simply doesn't take over the game. I say they've never seen Iceman played the right way. I've seen a few players dominate with him. I play an above average iceman as well. Spiral, I think, should be second tier. She can be taken out too easily by Capt. Commando's AAA, Cable, or an other good character. I think Spiral gets a lot of hype but she's not first tier in my book. Posted by Dasrik on 05:17:2001 01:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by silenttiger I do think Iceman should be in the last spot of the first tier. People say he is second tier because he simply doesn't take over the game. I say they've never seen Iceman played the right way. I've seen a few players dominate with him. I play an above average iceman as well. Spiral, I think, should be second tier. She can be taken out too easily by Capt. Commando's AAA, Cable, or an other good character. I think Spiral gets a lot of hype but she's not first tier in my book. *coughwhatareyousmokingcough* Iceman can't control the pace of the match. Basically, the only character in the top tier he can outright kill is Blackheart. The others have too many if's. And Spiral does NOT die for free to Commando, and she kills Cable. You simply haven't seen good Spiral players... I don't blame you for that, though, there are very few of them. quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical Magneto and Strider's assists also suck as well. Umm, B-Strider is actually very good - an upper tier assist, I'd say. It tracks the opponent on the ground and knocks down - cover his startup time and it kicks ass. Also, Y-Magneto is probably the best launcher assist in the game. This doesn't mean a great deal, but if push comes to shove you can use him as a ghetto AAA. quote: Originally posted by elfzero according to the official DFA definitions 'zangeif should be 3rd tier not bottom.. ironbody zangeif ground assist kicks ass! and his throw assist isn't too shabby either.. and he's underated on point.. (not by much) but he's not entirely worthless like everyone seems to think.. one-on-one or w/ a good assist he has good damage potential.. IB A-Zangief is pretty good, but please don't ever miss with it, because Gief will die so fast it won't be pretty. quote: Originally posted by Mr. E I would put tron up to 2nd, and Hayato up to third. other than that, pretty accurate Hayato is still the worst character in the game. What are you smoking? quote: Originally posted by David L Have you ever seen Dasrik and his brother play? THey enter tourneys and KICK ASS with double wolverine and spiderman and he placed 5th in the last jamesgames tournament which is really good. Don't give ME too much credit - that's my brother's claim to fame. The closest I ever get to that is using BH/Doom/InsertSuckyCharacterHere. Posted by silenttiger on 05:17:2001 03:23 PM: Why do people say Hayato sucks so much? Posted by Naslectronical on 05:17:2001 03:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Umm, B-Strider is actually very good - an upper tier assist, I'd say. It tracks the opponent on the ground and knocks down - cover his startup time and it kicks ass. Also, Y-Magneto is probably the best launcher assist in the game. This doesn't mean a great deal, but if push comes to shove you can use him as a ghetto AAA. Ghetto AAA!!! LMAO! Posted by SSJ2_Gouki on 05:17:2001 06:11 PM: Re: Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Top: Blackheart, Cable, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sentinel, Spiral, Storm, Strider 2nd: Cammy, Captain Commando, Colossus, Cyclops, Dhalsim, Iceman, Iron Man, Jin, Juggernaut, Ken, Marrow, Mega Man, Omega Red, Hulk, Silver Samurai, War Machine 3rd: Akuma, Anakaris, Captain America, Charlie, Chun Li, Felicia, Gambit, Guile, M. Bison, Morrigan, Psylocke, Rogue, Ruby Heart, Ryu, Sakura, Son Son, Tron Bonne, Venom, Wolverine, Wolverine (no metal) 4th: Amingo, BB Hood, Dan, Jill Valentine, Kobun, Sabretooth, Spider-Man, Thanos Bottom: Hayato, Roll, Shuma Gorath, Zangief And yes, a good player can beat anyone with anyone. Some characters are just better, though. Feel free to ask me any questions on why certain characters are where they are. -DFA [/B] I know it may sound strange, but I disagree. I think Shuma Gorath should be 3rd tier, middle to top. I'm notorius in Baltimore for pulling wins out of him on every game since MSH. It is mainly in how you play him, but he has tools for abusing, especially his drain grab. In MVC2, if you mash hard enough, it'll glicth and he'll gain about 15-20 %(pretty much all of his red most of the time), and they lose 30-50%. He also can beat a lot of the top tierw a decent assist or by himself. He can beat the hell out all of the big boys with crossups and air combos. The Chaos Dimension is harsh, too. Combo that, the lifter, and the glitch drain grab, and you can kill a weak character. Posted by StiltMan on 05:17:2001 07:55 PM: Re: Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Top: Blackheart, Cable, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sentinel, Spiral, Storm, Strider 2nd: Cammy, Captain Commando, Colossus, Cyclops, Dhalsim, Iceman, Iron Man, Jin, Juggernaut, Ken, Marrow, Mega Man, Omega Red, Hulk, Silver Samurai, War Machine 3rd: Akuma, Anakaris, Captain America, Charlie, Chun Li, Felicia, Gambit, Guile, M. Bison, Morrigan, Psylocke, Rogue, Ruby Heart, Ryu, Sakura, Son Son, Tron Bonne, Venom, Wolverine, Wolverine (no metal) 4th: Amingo, BB Hood, Dan, Jill Valentine, Kobun, Sabretooth, Spider-Man, Thanos Bottom: Hayato, Roll, Shuma Gorath, Zangief [/B] Rogue is second tier, not third. She can hold her own rather well with Magneto, Sentinel, Storm, and Doom if she has the right help, and if she's got Doom and a decent AAA behind her she can tear Iceman and the Iron Men a new one. Psylocke is also second tier. Her assist is dominating. Marrow, Hulk, and Jin don't belong anywhere near the second tier list. Hulk is towards the top of the third, probably the same for Jin, Marrow doesn't even get that kind of consideration. And BBHood, fourth tier? What are you smoking? Hood is very easily near the top of the second tier, maybe even knocking on the door of the top tier. All the crap she can throw on the screen just ruins so many characters it's not even funny. Simple litmus test: do you have a good beam? No? Then you probably lose to BBHood for free, because she's going to shut down just about any rushdown short of maybe Magneto cold even without assists. Get Sentinel behind her and she becomes a screen-filling terror right up there with Spiral. Get a glitched Juggernaut behind her and almost any triple team super she throws is going to kill someone regardless of who the third character on the team is. Get them both behind her and she's a threat even to a lot of tournament teams -- she can battery up on her own, expend the meter in lethal fashion, and control a lot of space with minimal effort. There aren't many characters in the game that can do all that. Posted by Iceman on 05:17:2001 09:13 PM: Ruby Heart is second tier no ifs ands or buts about it. I personally think Bone-Wolverinie is 2nd tier, but I can see why most would put him high third. Posted by ~Blue on 05:17:2001 09:23 PM: I think Sakura should be bumped up. She fights pretty well and if you setup with c. short, c. forward, jab shououken XX Shinkuu hadouken, you can DHC in to most HC's in the game. EX IM-proton cannon, storm-hailstorm, cyke-mob, cammy-kba, etc etc Posted by Jinmaster on 05:17:2001 10:14 PM: The top tier is defined by Tournament results and the simple fact that Top tier characters force you to adopt counter strategies. Middle-tier characters do not. Fluff and I have argued about Cyclops being top tier quite a bit. While he may beat some of the characters in the top tier 1v1, so do a lot of other accepted middle-tier characters. Logically speaking, Iron-man, Cyclops, and even Venom can beat a few top tier characters given a 1v1 scenario. That doesn't make them top tier. Top tier characters force you to develop a counter strategy, and Iceman, Iron-man, and Cyclops do not force the opponent to alter their game to the same degree that the accepted top tier does. Evidence to support this can be seen in the tournament results. The top tier is(in no particular order): Cable Storm Sentinel Magneto Spiral Blackheart Doom Strider Strider is only top tier becuase of the few assists in the game that make him soo potent. In the end, this is a team game. No matter how many good matches a 2nd tier character has against the top tier 1v1, more often than not the character's advantages in question are nullified or weakened by the presence of assists. -Micah Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:18:2001 02:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by AmakusaShiroTokisada LOL! Neither can Magneto! (dominate a match on any level besides at point) Magneto forces the opponent to choose a AAA as part of their team. That's a major strategy-alteration. Are we really in doubt as to whether he's top? I thought not. quote: Originally posted by elffzero according to the official DFA definitions 'zangeif should be 3rd tier not bottom.. ironbody zangeif ground assist kicks ass! and his throw assist isn't too shabby either.. and he's underated on point.. (not by much) but he's not entirely worthless like everyone seems to think.. one-on-one or w/ a good assist he has good damage potential.. Nice try. He sucks ass at point. His throw assist blows for everyone but a very few characters. Anything with IZ requires that he come into the match at point, and do the transformation, which is instant death. quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical Magneto and Strider's assists also suck as well. Dhalsim in my opinion contributes enough on point to where his assists don't matter, the same with Magneto and Strider. Magneto I already commented on. Strider dominates a match (on a 2nd level) by forcing the opponent to choose counter characters. Dhalsim is great at point, but not great to the point where you have to choose counter characters just to beat him. More replies in a minute... -DFA Posted by ShoFunaki on 05:18:2001 02:30 AM: I would bump Sonson up to 2nd. Her AAA has great horizontal range and is good for increasing the super metre and is great at point. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:18:2001 03:11 AM: Originally posted by silenttiger quote: Why do people say Hayato sucks? Lack of mobility. Bad lag time on every single move he has. Originally posted by SSJ2_Gouki quote: I think Shuma Gorath should be 3rd tier, middle to top. I'm notorius in Baltimore for pulling wins out of him on every game since MSH. It is mainly in how you play him, but he has tools for abusing, especially his drain grab. In MVC2, if you mash hard enough, it'll glicth and he'll gain about 15-20 %(pretty much all of his red most of the time), and they lose 30-50%. He also can beat a lot of the top tierw a decent assist or by himself. He can beat the hell out all of the big boys with crossups and air combos. The Chaos Dimension is harsh, too. Combo that, the lifter, and the glitch drain grab, and you can kill a weak character. Ummm…I suppose you could call his expansion assist “decent.” But he’s still trash at point. I’ll concede him the bottom spot of the 4th tier. Happy? Originally posted by Stiltman quote: Rogue is second tier, not third. She can hold her own rather well with Magneto, Sentinel, Storm, and Doom if she has the right help, and if she's got Doom and a decent AAA behind her she can tear Iceman and the Iron Men a new one. I give. At the time I did the original rankings, I waffled on whether or not to put her here. She’s not the most dominant gal around, but she is dominant enough. quote: Psylocke is also second tier. Her assist is dominating. Hehe…I actually intentionally dissed Psylocke. Even though 99.8% of everyone will disagree with this, I still don’t think her assist is dominant. I think there are much better assists for rushdown, and I think she dies WAAAAAAY to easily as an assist. That’s just me, though. *ducks thrown tomatoes* quote: Marrow, Hulk, and Jin don't belong anywhere near the second tier list. Hulk is towards the top of the third, probably the same for Jin, Marrow doesn't even get that kind of consideration. I’ll address all three together. They pretty much inhale massive donkeys balls at point. Grant you that. But, they are all REALLY, REALLY good on the bench. Enough so that I considered it dominant. Hulk has a prime anti-assist assist, killer DHCs, and THE team super. Jin’s assist needs no explanation, and he has a killer DHC, as well. And Marrow’s AAA is right up there with Jin’s, with better combo possibilities. And she also…waitaminnut…what the hell was I thinking? Ok, screw Marrow. But the other 2, it comes down to this, “Is their dominance as a bench player enough to offset their half-assed point play?” I guess I’ll think about that. Maybe my definitions need tweaking… quote: And BBHood, fourth tier? What are you smoking? Hood is very easily near the top of the second tier, maybe even knocking on the door of the top tier. All the crap she can throw on the screen just ruins so many characters it's not even funny. Simple litmus test: do you have a good beam? No? Then you probably lose to BBHood for free, because she's going to shut down just about any rushdown short of maybe Magneto cold even without assists. Get Sentinel behind her and she becomes a screen-filling terror right up there with Spiral. Get a glitched Juggernaut behind her and almost any triple team super she throws is going to kill someone regardless of who the third character on the team is. Get them both behind her and she's a threat even to a lot of tournament teams -- she can battery up on her own, expend the meter in lethal fashion, and control a lot of space with minimal effort. There aren't many characters in the game that can do all that. Are we serious here? I’ve always though of her as decent enough on point, but by no means dominant. And the rest of her game is kinda blah, IMO. Maybe you could share what she does at point to make her dominate? You can PM me, or just post in this thread. I’ll wait and see. *Smiles* Good responses, people. I’ll respond to whatever, so keep ‘em comin’. -DFA Posted by Naslectronical on 05:18:2001 03:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Magneto I already commented on. Strider dominates a match (on a 2nd level) by forcing the opponent to choose counter characters. Dhalsim is great at point, but not great to the point where you have to choose counter characters just to beat him. -DFA I believe that's about to change in the coming months with more to be discovered about Dhalsim. He's already proven to be Storm's worst match-up in the game, she can't run from him because of his reach. He's a bad match-up to Magneto and other pixies because of his long reach. He's a bad match-up for Cable. You said that Magneto makes you have to change your strategy because he forces you to pick AAA's. Well so does Dhalsim. If you don't have Commando or Blackheart, and he gets so much of a pixel of a life lead, he can teleport, air dash up, teleport, air dash up, teleport, air dash up, for the remainder of the match and there's nothing you can do about it. Posted by HuStLeMaN17 on 05:18:2001 03:17 AM: Actually stiltman is right bout B.B. Hood being very close to top tier, only if used right with the right assist's backing that biatch up she can be down right deadly. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:18:2001 03:34 AM: After reading all the posts so far (and especially Stiltman's on-the-money post), I figured my definitions for the tiers needed tweaking. I haven't really taken anything out, I'm just adding to the criteria; here it is: Top Tier: Dominates at point, and on at least one other level, as well. (e.g. great assist, counter XX super, makes you choose counter chars) Has no major, exploitable weaknesses 2nd Tier: Dominates on one level. Is good on other levels, but not dominate. Has no major, exploitable weaknesses 3rd Tier: Plays well at point, has a good assist. Lacks dominance, due to some minor, exploitable weaknesses. 4th Tier: Plays decently in at least one aspect of the game, but has a highly exploitable weakness that prevents them from consistently beating many characters. Bottom Tier: Sucks at point. Sucks on the bench. Has more than one major weakness. S'okay? Back to responses... -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:18:2001 03:53 AM: quote: Originally posted by Iceman Ruby Heart is second tier no ifs ands or buts about it. I personally think Bone-Wolverinie is 2nd tier, but I can see why most would put him high third. IF: the opponent knows her trap, it's really not that hard to avoid. AND: it's not terribly effective against characters who spend most of their time in the air (e.g. any rushdown character, BH, flying Sent) BUT: it's still highly effective against any opponent who like to play reactive, instead of offensive. She stays near the top of the 3rd tier. Bone Wolvie: doesn't dominate matches. The fact that he's very solid otherwise, and his weaknesses are more circumstantial than abusable lands him solidly in that 3rd tier. quote: Originally posted by ~Blue I think Sakura should be bumped up. She fights pretty well and if you setup with c. short, c. forward, jab shououken XX Shinkuu hadouken, you can DHC in to most HC's in the game. EX IM-proton cannon, storm-hailstorm, cyke-mob, cammy-kba, etc etc I have a feeling I'm going to be saying this a lot: HOW DOES SHE DOMINATE A MATCH? If a character doesn't have any aspect of their game that easily dominates a match (point play, bench play/assist, must choose counter chars), then they are NOT in the top tier, or the 2nd tier. Again, solid 3rd tier material. Ay ay ay, this is taking a while. More to come... -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:18:2001 05:28 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jinmaster The top tier is defined by Tournament results and the simple fact that Top tier characters force you to adopt counter strategies. Middle-tier characters do not. I think we are mostly in agreement here. I did want to break this down into a solid 5 tiers, though, so I made some extra differentiation. What do you think of the (revised) definitions I made for the tiers? (1)Excellent (2)Mediocre (3)Pure Shit quote: Fluff and I have argued about Cyclops being top tier quite a bit. While he may beat some of the characters in the top tier 1v1, so do a lot of other accepted middle-tier characters. Logically speaking, Iron-man, Cyclops, and even Venom can beat a few top tier characters given a 1v1 scenario. That doesn't make them top tier. Agreed, and agreed. quote: Top tier characters force you to develop a counter strategy, and Iceman, Iron-man, and Cyclops do not force the opponent to alter their game to the same degree that the accepted top tier does. Evidence to support this can be seen in the tournament results. True, but I think the thing that differentiates the 2nd tier from the middle tier is that the 2nd tier characters do force you to somewhat change your gameplan, whereas the middle tier characters do not. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion on the 2nd and 3rd tiers. -DFA Posted by ComboFighter on 05:18:2001 06:20 AM: Why is BH and Strider in the top??? Why is BH and Strider in the top tier??? There's only one good thing about BH and that's his B-assit. I believe the top should also consider that the character should be able to stand on thier own without assits. BH and Strider can't do this and should be placed in the second tier. They don't force me to do anything to my game plan when someone picks them. It's when they pick Dr. Doom with them that forces me to adjust my game plan a LITTLE. Not them. BH and Strider can't do much of anything if they're your last character. With the rest of the top tiers, you have a chance to still win. With BH and Strider, stick a fork in you, you're done. Posted by elffzero on 05:18:2001 10:58 AM: i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on anakaris, i mean he does have a 300% infinite (although improbable) and he can hold his own on point. A-anakaris is murder in block damage THC's and his supers, while inconsistant, can lead to huge damage. so i'm thinking... a possible lower spot on 2nd tier maybe.. Posted by HyperViperSniper on 05:18:2001 11:21 AM: Magneto is NOT top tier.. he is a strong second teir..there are actually only 7 top tier characters... Storm Strider Sentinel Doom Blackheart Cable Spiral that is it.. if you want them in order let me know.. they are THE only top tiers in the game.. HVS Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:18:2001 01:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by ShoFunaki I would bump Sonson up to 2nd. Her AAA has great horizontal range and is good for increasing the super metre and is great at point. Son Son is actually my very favorite "fun character." And while I agree that she is much underrated at point, I know for a fact that she doesn't get any "free" wins at point. As good as her AAA may be, I have yet to hear anyone say, "Oh shit, he picked SonSon. Now my Mags/Storm is f***ed." Do you see what I'm saying here? She suffers from a lack of abusable shit. quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical You said that Magneto makes you have to change your strategy because he forces you to pick AAA's. Well so does Dhalsim. If you don't have Commando or Blackheart, and he gets so much of a pixel of a life lead, he can teleport, air dash up, teleport, air dash up, teleport, air dash up, for the remainder of the match and there's nothing you can do about it. You make a good point here. However, it's not just Commando and Blackheart. Magneto, Ruby Heart, Anakaris, and Megaman can all bring him down without using supers, and other chars, such as Storm, Cyclops, and Hulk, can bring him down at the cost of a super. Truthfully, what are the chances of going against a team that doesn't have any one of those characters, anyway? Combine that with the fact that you actually must HAVE the lead for this tactic to be effective, and it suddenly doesn't seem so dominating. Nonetheless, of all the characters listed, I feel he is the ONLY character that is non-top, that could perhaps make it to that level. It won't happen unless someone brings it with his rushdown, methinks. Good Night...err..morning.. -DFA Posted by Jinmaster on 05:18:2001 04:19 PM: DeathFromAbove, I really have not put any thought into tiers beyond what you originally said, you have the top tier, the decent characters, and the trash. The purpose of tiering is the discussion of strategy, and I think a lot of players miss that. Another reason I don't put much thought into lower tiers is the fact that I rarley have a list of all 56 characters in front of me and I'd have to go by memory to compare and rank them all. I probably could do some kind of generalization, but it really wouldn't matter that much. What I do tend to do is disagree with people who think certain characters are trash when they are easily useable, such as Chun-li. On the flip-side, I will argue over who is top tier and who is not. For the record, the only "trash" characters who cannot compete on a well constructed team are Dan, Roll, Servbot, Hyato, and maybe 1-2 other people that I can't name off my head cuase like I said I gots nose list in frontz o me. HVS, I disagree 110% with Magneto not being top tier. My 1st post on this thread holds true, Magneto forces you to develop a counter strategy... or in other words he forces you to think hard about every move you make. A patient rush-down magneto will kill your helpers unless you are positive you can protect them. In fact, if one of your helpers eats one launch into a 5-hit air combo, they will have taken enough damage to not be callable without serious consideration if Magneto has 2 meters. In fact, every time Mag is in your face and you call an AAA first, you risk losing it to a J. call psylocke tempest-dhc-Hailstorm. Furthermore, Magneto has a non-hyper-grav combo(with psylocke) which is unmashable and completely safe. This combo results from any launch, and usually a DHC to Storm will kill if they have taken any damage. The damage potential for Mag is very, very high. He has the mobility needed to be a true pixie-rush-down character, just as storm does. The fact that Mag must rush down against 80-90% of the teams out there, in an assist-filled enviornment, and manages to win against the top tier on point, is rather stunning. To put him in the same category as Iceman, Iron-man, and the other mid-tier characters is extreme to me. -Micah Posted by StiltMan on 05:18:2001 06:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Hehe…I actually intentionally dissed Psylocke. Even though 99.8% of everyone will disagree with this, I still don’t think her assist is dominant. I think there are much better assists for rushdown, and I think she dies WAAAAAAY to easily as an assist. That’s just me, though. *ducks thrown tomatoes* Yeah, well... when she goes clean through Doom-B, Commando-B, and she sets up free, guaranteed (read: unrollable) and extremely painful combos for Cable and Storm, as well as strong combos for Magneto (not sure if it's possible to launch off her without allowing a roll... Storm can, I know for sure, Magneto I'm not sure), I'd say you've given her a bad rap. quote: I’ll address all three together. They pretty much inhale massive donkeys balls at point. Grant you that. But, they are all REALLY, REALLY good on the bench. Enough so that I considered it dominant. Hulk has a prime anti-assist assist, killer DHCs, and THE team super. Jin’s assist needs no explanation, and he has a killer DHC, as well. And Marrow’s AAA is right up there with Jin’s, with better combo possibilities. And she also…waitaminnut…what the hell was I thinking? Ok, screw Marrow. But the other 2, it comes down to this, “Is their dominance as a bench player enough to offset their half-assed point play?” I guess I’ll think about that. Maybe my definitions need tweaking… Actually, I think that pretty much all the conventional wisdom on Hulk is bass-ackwards. Although his gamma crush team super has a very painful upside to it, the number of teams where it's actually going to hit full tilt is limited. If the opponent isn't held on the ground by the teammates, Hulk's damage either is minimized or outright whiffs. His assists do nothing to opposing assists that a glitched Juggernaut or Commando wouldn't do better, and ditto for the DHC power if you really want to just maul someone for one meter off of an easy setup. That said, I think Hulk is actually not all that bad on point. His normals chip (I'm not sure if they did in MvC1), so he doesn't really have to worry about bringing helpers to do this for him, and although the fact that his gamma crush is mashable tends to turn a lot of people off, there's a lot of damage potential in gamma charge XX gamma wave. You gamma charge past them, then cancel, and if you've been effective in your positioning (i.e. backing them down) the gamma wave goes back the other way and goes practically the whole flying screen's length. He's not going to take Magneto's place any time soon, but I think his point power is a bit underrated. Jin's AAA is really good. But practically the same area is covered by Psylocke, and you can set stuff up with Psylocke while you can't with Jin. And that AAA is basically the only reason you'd ever want him on your team. Re: BBHood quote: Are we serious here? I’ve always though of her as decent enough on point, but by no means dominant. And the rest of her game is kinda blah, IMO. Maybe you could share what she does at point to make her dominate? You can PM me, or just post in this thread. I’ll wait and see. Oh, absolutely, I'm serious. You already know the gimmicky stuff with BBHood/Jug/Hulk, and most of the widespread knowledge about her is based on that team. I don't think that's a fair estimate of her full ability, because Jug and Hulk do very little to complement her abilities. But I've been toying around with BBHood/Jug/Sentinel over the last few days, and I'm not exaggerating a bit when I say that I'm seriously wondering if this team couldn't be used in tournaments. The opening, obviously, is to glitch and get Hood in there. From there, BBHood/Sentinel is absolutely vicious. Once Hood gets just a moment's space, forget about doing basically anything near the ground unless you're Spiral/Sentinel, and even then, getting the knives loaded and going anywhere through all the missiles, mines, and drones can be a horrific chore. Hood piles on the meter so fast during this time that it isn't even funny -- if you give her about ten or twenty seconds she's got enough meter that she gets extremely dangerous. And the team super with BBHood/Jug/Sentinel, with Jug glitched, will usually kill you just as dead as the old guard BBH/Jug/Hulk one will, except that Sentinel will cover a lot of area to keep the other two from getting stuffed by projectiles, and the biggest parts of the damage aren't dependent on your opponent being nice enough to stay on the ground while they get splattered. Throw Juggernaut in there as a portable wall to stop Spiral's knives and as a potential assist punisher if you really feel like it, and there's a ton of upside to this team. Real example match I played the other day: Hood/Jug/Sentinel versus IM/WM/Doom. I power up Jug, tag him out when IM goes up for smart bombs. Hood/Sentinel puts up the pressure, sometimes has to super jump up to discourage Iron Man from going up, but between double jumps in the air and missiles/mines/drones on the ground it isn't that harsh keeping enough control to pile on the meter. The other guy is mixing up between double smart bombs with WM assist and dropping Doom and super jump smart bombing, which creates a little trouble. Against Cable, this is almost completely safe to do, and in fact you'll have a very hard time against it all. You can't AHVB an assist because the smart bombs will stuff it. And getting out over the smart bombs with the assist coming at you is very often extremely difficult. That said, I killed his entire team in two big blazes of glory. War Machine died in the first one. Iron Man's smart bombs got stuffed by the HSF in the team super, which left BBHood and the glitched Jug to waste WM cold. Iron Man and Doom died together in the second one. He dropped Doom at a little under half screen and jumped for the smart bombs. A slam on both assist buttons, ggpo. Hood didn't even have to tag out, she batteried it all for herself and was able to use it just as well. Moreover, my opponent wasn't even doing anything that was (normally) all that stupid, as I said, because against Cable all of this would've been completely safe. You usually figure that if you can do it safely on Cable, it's safe on anyone. Heck, even against old guard Team 100%, it wouldn't even have been dangerous, because Iron Man would've been able to human shield for the assist in either case, air blocking in the super jumping case to keep Hulk from landing the rock on War Machine, and either air blocking again or taking the hit for Doom, either of which would've allowed his assists to live in those cases. There's even a good chance that Hulk and/or Jug would've gotten stuffed by one or the other set of smart bombs... with Sentinel to cover with the HSF quickly, no hope of that. Anything on the ground that gets caught up in that is probably going to die. Almost as good is the fact that Sentinel and Juggernaut will both clear out before Hood gets done shooting, so if you splatter a helper and you don't catch the point character as well, only Hood is vulnerable. With the damage it does, the ease with which Hood can battery up for it with Sentinel behind her, and the instant release time -- if you can headcrush it, you can team super it, which means it's faster than an AHVB at many ranges -- that team super is just too good. Don't hold me on my claims of its potential in a tournament... but at the very least, I have no doubts whatsoever that Hood is at least second tier. She's practically unrushable, she can control a lot of space, and if you put a good team around her to let her battery up and then expend it in painful enough fashion, she can make whole teams go away all by herself. Posted by StiltMan on 05:18:2001 07:00 PM: Re: Why is BH and Strider in the top??? quote: Originally posted by ComboFighter Why is BH and Strider in the top tier??? There's only one good thing about BH and that's his B-assit. You're high. BH on point with either Cyclops or Commando is an excellent rushdown and battery character. And Strider only has one of the best traps in the game. I think Strider is probably low top tier in real terms due to the fact that you have to be almost inhuman to play him properly, and he forces you to bring Doom and a third helper, and Doom's stock is going down more and more all the time. It used to be that Doom was considered either the best character in the game or close to it. Now he's considered low top tier at best... Magneto tears him up, Sentinel tears him up, Cable tears him up, and just about any team with Commando on it gives him horrific problems. So now that Doom is no longer as effective as a backup plan if Strider goes down, the burden is all the more on Strider to get it done, and the difficulty of playing a perfect Strider becomes a much bigger weight dragging him down. quote: I believe the top should also consider that the character should be able to stand on thier own without assits. Bzzzzzt. Sorry, this is a team game. The only situation where doing well on your own without assists is a factor is in endgame situations, and the tiers already account for that. That said, Strider shouldn't be your last character. Most real tournament situations call for Strider to be flat out run into the ground and let Doom or the third character pick up after he dies. And BH can do quite well if he's the last character on the team, thank you. Posted by Big Pete Roasa on 05:18:2001 07:04 PM: I've finaly come to realize something there is no teirs, I meen look at Justin Wong he can beat you with damn near any one in the game, I think it's all on the person playing if you take the timeto learn the charecters you will be able to find something good in all of them, all the teirs are in your head, thats just my opinion then again I could be wrong.....but it isnt likely Posted by Naslectronical on 05:18:2001 07:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove You make a good point here. However, it's not just Commando and Blackheart. Magneto, Ruby Heart, Anakaris, and Megaman can all bring him down without using supers, and other chars, such as Storm, Cyclops, and Hulk, can bring him down at the cost of a super. Truthfully, what are the chances of going against a team that doesn't have any one of those characters, anyway? Combine that with the fact that you actually must HAVE the lead for this tactic to be effective, and it suddenly doesn't seem so dominating. Nonetheless, of all the characters listed, I feel he is the ONLY character that is non-top, that could perhaps make it to that level. It won't happen unless someone brings it with his rushdown, methinks. -DFA Dhalsim doesn't need to run from Storm. It's him that stops Storm from running from him. It's harder for her to rush him down because of his long reach. He can jump back fierce to counter her. If she tries to run, jumping roundhouses can catch her. And Magneto, Ruby Heart, Anakaris......etc, may be able to bring him down, but it's not that easy. He can activate flight, call chipping assist to hold his opponent in place, fly cancel, protect assist, reactivate flight, teleport, air dash up, and repeat. They can't bring him down if they're stuck blocking assists. Dhalsim can take characters out of their game. Storm, Cable, etc...... Posted by Dasrik on 05:19:2001 01:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Jin's AAA is really good. But practically the same area is covered by Psylocke, and you can set stuff up with Psylocke while you can't with Jin. And that AAA is basically the only reason you'd ever want him on your team. *coughcough* Jin's coverage is WAY LARGER than Psylocke's, covering cross-ups in a much larger range. And while you can't follow up after Jin if you're using the rushdown crew, he can be used much like you'd use Commando without the superjump coverage - to blow out attacks and to send the opponent across the screen. And Jin is VERY, VERY GOOD with Blackheart, whereas Psylocke is not really. In BH rushdown, it's actually easier to combo Inferno XX HOD off of Jin's assist than it is off of Commando's, and you can also combo it if the enemy superjumps on top of Jin, much like Mags/Storm's combos off of Psylocke. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:19:2001 07:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by ComboFighter Why is BH and Strider in the top tier??? There's only one good thing about BH and that's his B-assit. I believe the top should also consider that the character should be able to stand on thier own without assits. BH and Strider can't do this and should be placed in the second tier. They don't force me to do anything to my game plan when someone picks them. It's when they pick Dr. Doom with them that forces me to adjust my game plan a LITTLE. Not them. BH and Strider can't do much of anything if they're your last character. With the rest of the top tiers, you have a chance to still win. With BH and Strider, stick a fork in you, you're done. I think I disagree with every single sentence in your post. There is absolutely no reason why 1 on 1 skill should be considered. Stiltman pretty much summed it up, but I just wanted to add this thought: Your gameplan should never revolve around the fight coming down to 1 on 1. That is a last resort. Good teams usually have a "best case" strategy, and also have SEVERAL alternate strategies before that point is ever reached. In short, plan for success, not failure. quote: Originally posted by elffzero i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on anakaris, i mean he does have a 300% infinite (although improbable) and he can hold his own on point. A-anakaris is murder in block damage THC's and his supers, while inconsistant, can lead to huge damage. so i'm thinking... a possible lower spot on 2nd tier maybe.. I think he has the offensive potential. Anakaris is possibly the least developed character, here in the USA (my opinion). I know for a fact there are at least a couple more infinite setups that are (relatively) unexplored. At the same time, though, I have some doubts. He has some rather exploitable weaknesses. Lack of a usable jump, bad stamina, bad recovery time on most attacks, no real throw. If he ever starts to see tournament time, these things can and will be exploited. This one is really a wait and see, but my guess is that he will stay in the 3rd tier. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:19:2001 10:24 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jinmaster I really have not put any thought into tiers beyond what you originally said, you have the top tier, the decent characters, and the trash. The purpose of tiering is the discussion of strategy, and I think a lot of players miss that. Another reason I don't put much thought into lower tiers is the fact that I rarley have a list of all 56 characters in front of me and I'd have to go by memory to compare and rank them all. I probably could do some kind of generalization, but it really wouldn't matter that much. Yeah, but making it SOOoo explicit does 2 good things: (1) It gets the readers of this thread to actually think about the factors that go into making a character good. (2) It motivates people to explain why to everyone else here, which makes me (and I assume anyone willing to learn) better with/against those characters. There's a method to the madness. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:19:2001 11:04 AM: Stiltman: Killer post. I gotta say you give out some of the best info of anybody here at SRK. Regarding Psylocke: that's just me, and I'm probably wrong. Don't let it get to you. You still won't see me using her, though. I'm entitled to a couple of strange opinions... Re: Jin assist: Give it a little credit. There's no better assist for wresting control away from a rampant Mags, IMO. Psylocke doesn't do that, nope. About Hulk: *scratches head* Uhh...thanx for the tip on using Gamma Wave. Good stuff. Outside of that, though...how do you ever manage to land an attack with Hulk? He has to work so hard just to get an opening, and when he does, I rarely land anything but a throw. Everything he does is just soooo easily telegraphed. It's fine if they come to you, I suppose... (and he's still really good on the bench, even if he's not quite so good there as Juggs) BB Hood: Wow! I'm fairly convinced. I'd say that BB with 3+ levels IS upper tier 2. Putting that "no assist rule" in effect is certainly dominance. And w/o the levels, I'd call her tier 3. (Still too many teams out there packing beamers, beam assists, or shielding assists, IMO) It still seems to me that she is a bit too helper dependant. Strider is too, but he brings Doom, which doesn't carry too many liabilities, whereas BB brings Jugg, who has a # of liabilities. So I guess she's lower tier 2/upper tier 3. Thx again for a really good post. -DFA (a nice sandwich? let's hope not!) Posted by ShoFunaki on 05:19:2001 11:49 AM: Sonson suffers from a lack of abusable shit. Correct. That's why she should be a battery. And suffering from a lack of abusable shit is not an exploitable weakness. She also has that infinite on Sent./BH Sonson's playing style should be similar to Anakaris's: Mix up your moves and confuse the opponent. If the top tier should not have any major, exploitable weaknesses, the only true top tiers should be spiral, storm and Doom. Strider:weak defense. BH:Cannot hold his own 1v1. Cable:Sux 1v1, cannot work effectively without meter, kinda big(maybe).And the list goes on.... Posted by nimh on 05:19:2001 02:43 PM: top tier is pretty consistant , my second tier is prolly smaller than most peoples though top: Sentinal, Cable, Storm, Spiral, BH, magneto, Strider only with doom Second:Omega red, cyclops, cammando, iron man, tron, juggernaut, cammy, dhalsim and just cause you have an infinite on sentinal doesnt mean your higher up in the tier bracket, 50% -60% or the characters has an infinite on him :P Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:20:2001 02:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical Dhalsim doesn't need to run from Storm. It's him that stops Storm from running from him. It's harder for her to rush him down because of his long reach. He can jump back fierce to counter her. If she tries to run, jumping roundhouses can catch her. And Magneto, Ruby Heart, Anakaris......etc, may be able to bring him down, but it's not that easy. He can activate flight, call chipping assist to hold his opponent in place, fly cancel, protect assist, reactivate flight, teleport, air dash up, and repeat. They can't bring him down if they're stuck blocking assists. Dhalsim can take characters out of their game. Storm, Cable, etc...... You may be right. Still, you'll have to play one helluva Dhalsim to get people to change their whole team based on his being there. My experience is that when someone can't bring him down with their point character, they just free switch to one of their characters who can. The same basically goes for his poking game, except that they usually end up eating a projectile assist on the switch-in, for minimal damage. Also, your strat on using assists looks like it has a few holes. Mainly this: in order to protect the assist Dhalsim either has to come down and make an attack, or get to the other side of the opponent while flying. Either way, he loses enough altitude that he becomes vulnerable to attack as he is coming out of his teleport. Maybe you could elaborate on this a bit? What assist do you usually use? I'll wait and see on Dhalsim (and play and practice, he's one of the characters I use competitively, anyway). He may very well become a game-altering character. HVS: You say Magneto isn't top tier? Why not? It's tough to respond if you don't give reasons. -DFA Posted by Naslectronical on 05:20:2001 03:55 AM: He doesn't necessarily have to come that far down to protect his assists. His jumping fierce has enough range to reach without him having to come to close. And as for Storm and Cyclops bringing him down with their supers, he can just skip the flight mode and go into the teleport, air dash up...repeat. If they try to bring him down with SOB or Hailstorm, he can block it, teleport, activate flight, fly cancel, and then start his teleport, air dash up, again. Since his teleport resets everything he did, he can once again go into his teleport, air dash up, once again. But for this, he would need a significant lead against Storm because the chipping from the Hailstorm could make him lose his lead. Against the other characters like Cyclops or Megaman, it wouldn't really matter that much because SOB and Beat Plane don't really do a lot of chipping damage. So if Sim's got say, a 50% life lead, I'd say he's won. Posted by **?#$!+** on 05:20:2001 03:56 AM: I LIKE YOUR AVATAR GUY!! TOP TIER SHOULD BE ANYONE THAT CAN DEAL DAMAGE IN ONE COMBO AND CAN HOLD THEIR OWN. EXAMPLE STORM, CABLE, SENTINEL. Posted by Iceman on 05:20:2001 04:34 AM: ShoFunaki: Blackheart doesn't suck 1 on 1? His only real threat 1-on-1 is chip damage, but he'll get a lot of oppertunity to do that. It's not like his jumping roundhouse goes away 1-on-1. And his tail doesn't magically lose priority 1-on-1. He's not helpless. Honestly, Sentinel is more helpless 1 on 1 then BH (and Sentinel isn't helpless either). And Cable doesn't suck 1 on 1. Life is much easier fighting Cable 1 on 1, but AHVB x 3 doesn't go away. Also Cable's jumping roundhouse is DAMN good as a jump-in. Cable can still kill in one combo 1 on 1, how many characters other then Magneto and Iron Man can do that anywhere on the screen? Posted by Dynamyte2U on 05:20:2001 06:33 AM: Death From Above, your rankings are horrible. Marrow 2nd tier??? Sabretooth 2nd last tier??? Anyways, I split it up into six tiers, and ranked them in order from top to bottom. 1.Storm 2.Sentinel 3.Doctor Doom 4.Cable 5.Magneto 6.Blackheart 7.Spiral 8.Strider-Hiryu 9.Cyclops 10.Iron Man 11.Iceman 12.Dhalsim 13.Psylocke 14.Megaman 15.Cammy 16.Colossus 17.Ruby Heart 18.Omega Red 19.War Machine 20.Captain Commando 21.Silver Samurai 22.Ken 23.Sabretooth 24.Anakaris 25.Juggernaut 26.Venom 27.Guile 28.Rogue 29.Jin 30.Wolverine(Bone) 31.Charlie 32.M.Bison 33.Akuma 34.Wolverine 35.B.B.Hood 36.Tron Bonne 37.Captain America 38.Jill 39.Gambit 40.Felicia 41.Thanos 42.Hulk 43.Morrigan 44.Ryu 45.Spider-Man 46.Amingo 47.Marrow 48.Shuma Gorath 49.Sakura 50.Hayato 51.Zangief 52.Chun-Li 53.Dan 54.Sonson 55.Servbot 56.Roll Posted by Iceman on 05:20:2001 07:07 AM: Dynamite2U: I got some beef with your rankings. Spiral that low? Hmmmmmm. Psylocke at 13 just for an assist? Damn, if assists mean that much, you can put Ken and Jin in the top tier! Psylocke is nothing to brag about on point either. BTW, Commando beats Psylocke on all basis. Personally, I think Silver Sam is 2nd tier (better then Omega Red at least. They do share a common problem, Cable). Ken and Sabretooth (especially Sabretooth) are overrated, Rogue and Bison are grossly underrated. Bone Wolverine is better then Guile on all fronts. Juggy is more useful then Anakaris. BB Hood and Tron are better then Guile or Charlie. Morrigan that low? Uhhhh. Sonson, Sakura, Chun-Li, and Servbot are all better (i.e. more useful) then Captain America, who is very overrated. And at 51, Hayato is too high Posted by ShoFunaki on 05:20:2001 09:24 AM: wtf?Dynamite2U your rankings are all wrong! I mean, Sakura and Sonson bottom tier? Talk about underrating. Posted by Baby Bonnie Hood on 05:20:2001 09:33 AM: StiltMan, you have so become my hero now O_O I am definitely gonna expand on that 'fill the screen with crap then unleash a crossover combo on the opponent's assists' idea. I shall kick more ass than ever before!!! It's nice to know there's another BBHood fan around here Posted by CharDLiciouse on 05:20:2001 09:41 AM: cable psylock and cammy all I have to say Posted by Dynamyte2U on 05:20:2001 08:03 PM: Iceman44>> RE: SPIRAL Just because I ranked Spiral #7, doesn't mean that she's "low". It means that there are 6 characters that are better than her. Storm, Sentinel, Doom, Cable and Magneto are obviously above her. The only one that's a bit iffy is Blackheart, and he is definately on the rise. Somebody needed the #7 spot, and if I put BH there, somebody else would be bitching at me. RE: PSYLOCKE Psylocke is one of the best transitional assists in the game, second only to Cyclops. In a match of master versus master, very few mistakes are made, so each player must capitalize on each of the opponent's mistakes in order to win the game. Some mistakes are so subtle that you don't even notice them. However, Psylocke can break open these small mistakes and turn them into a viscious air-combo from Magneto, Storm, Sentinel, etc..., an infinite from Iron Man, or even an AHVBx3 from Cable. Basically, Psylocke forces the opponent to be perfect from in close, or else it can cost him 75% of his lifebar. Jin, Ken, and CapCom have awesome assists, but not any that are as dominant as Psylocke. Especially in an expert vs expert match-up, the transition game is by far THE most important aspect of MvC2. RE: SILVER SAMURAI & OMEGA RED Yeah, the gap between the 2nd and 3rd tier is very narrow, in my rankings. They're not really 2nd and 3rd tiers actually. I just separated them so that all 6 tiers are as equal in size as possible. That whole section of Omega to Silver Samurai is really iffy. RE: KEN Tournament play is based on matchups and the meta game. Ken is too useful (as a counter) to pass up. He can beat the Strider-Doom trap, and he also beats out players who use Cyclops and Psylocke for transition. Ken's assist can stunt these tactics pretty well. I agree, he's not that great of a character, but because MvC2 is a game of matchups, he deserves a high ranking. Especially in tournament play. RE: SABRETOOTH I agree that I overrated Sabretooth a little bit. Maybe I'm a little biased on that, because he's used so often and so effectively at my arcade. RE: ROGUE & BISON Rogue and M.Bison have some nasty tricks, but most of them don't work as well against the top tier characters. Again, this is a game of matchups, and if a character matches up poorly against the most common characters, they'll suffer in the rankings. Rogue's game gets stunted by AAAs, and Bison has too much trouble against rushdown AND keepaway characters. RE: BONE-WOLVERINE & GUILE Are you sure Wolvie is better than Guile on all fronts? Don't forget that Bone-Wolverine is a part of team 137. RE: JUGGERNAUT & ANAKARIS Without glitches, Juggernaut is basically food for the first tier. He's AHVB food, air-combo food, and keepaway food. However, the only reason why I ranked him in the third tier is because he is so powerful and because of his massive HC. As for Anakaris, he's a lot better than you think. His keepaway game works well against almost all 1st and 2nd tier characters, and he creates confusing blocking patterns, when played against intermediate-advanced players. His main downfall is his stamina and lack of speed. RE: B.B.HOOD & TRON BONNE I might have underrated B.B.Hood and overrated Guile a little bit, but my ranking still stands for T.Bonne and Charlie. RE: MORRIGAN She's pretty bad... RE: CAPTAIN AMERICA & THOSE BOTTOM TIER CHARS Captain America is crappy, but he at least has some damaging combos. Those characters you've mentioned are definately NOT better than Capt. America. As for Hayato at 51, look at the characters who are under him. Are any of them really better than Hayato? ShoFunaki> ....... Posted by disgruntled goa on 05:20:2001 08:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dynamyte2U RE: MORRIGAN She's pretty bad... ShoFunaki> ....... [/B] Morrigan isn't that bad. Sure, she takes damage horribly and deals it horribly but she's fast. Her air dashes are very useful and her triangle jumps aren't too bad either. She's very dependant on her assists though, usually someone like Cyclops or Tron to help her set up some nasty darkness illusion combos. Posted by Jaze on 05:20:2001 10:04 PM: jill why isn't everybody giving jill any credit? she can do some serious damage, provided that she has the right assist characters. she is extremely quick, and two of her supers combo very well, which is more than can be said for most characters. she can also force her opponent to alter his strategy if they don't play with a beam character. she can flood the screen with zombies, and then use captain commando's aa assist to keep the opponent away. also, if the character throws out a beam while doing this, she can jump over it, let it hit the zombies, and then punish them with an air combo. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:21:2001 12:15 AM: quote: Originally posted by ShoFunaki Sonson suffers from a lack of abusable shit. Correct. That's why she should be a battery. And suffering from a lack of abusable shit is not an exploitable weakness. She also has that infinite on Sent./BH Sonson's playing style should be similar to Anakaris's: Mix up your moves and confuse the opponent. If the top tier should not have any major, exploitable weaknesses, the only true top tiers should be spiral, storm and Doom. Strider:weak defense. BH:Cannot hold his own 1v1. Cable:Sux 1v1, cannot work effectively without meter, kinda big(maybe).And the list goes on.... Sonson may not be easily exploitable...but she also doesn't have any dominance whatsoever. Tier 3...lower tier 3, due to some other weaknesses. Also, the key word here is Exploitable. Bad stamina is certainly a significant weakness, but it's not exploitable in-match. You can't build a strategy to target that weakness and eliminate Strider for free. On the other hand, Juggernaut's lack of mobility, and enormous size is quite exploitable in-match, making him a freebie for many characters when he's in at point. Bh's not bad at 1 on 1, but even if he was, this would be a moot point, because you have to snap him out and kill the other 2 characters before this would even come into play... Cable actually does have a (sort-of) exploitable weakness: He's a liability on point w/o levels. However, you have to go through his teammate in order to exploit it, so it's not THAT exploitable on a well-formed team. Besides, w/ a Commando assist, he's really not that bad in this situation, either... quote: Originally posted by Dynamyte2U Death From Above, your rankings are horrible. Marrow 2nd tier??? Sabretooth 2nd last tier??? If you read through the rest of this stuff, you'll notice I revised my definitions, and already knocked Marrow down to 3rd tier. And Sabretooth certainly deserves 4th tier, as he has virtually no value at point, and is only a little better than average as a bench-rider. I guess I should post revised tiers now that y'all have changed my mind on a bunch of this stuff... -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:21:2001 12:40 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dynamyte2U RE: SILVER SAMURAI & OMEGA RED Yeah, the gap between the 2nd and 3rd tier is very narrow, in my rankings. They're not really 2nd and 3rd tiers actually. I just separated them so that all 6 tiers are as equal in size as possible. That whole section of Omega to Silver Samurai is really iffy. I actually think that a distinction should be made. That's part of what I've been getting at in this thread. A 2nd tier character is a character that can take over a match, and control the pace of the match, or can make the opponent change their gameplan because of their presence as an assist/bench character. 3rd tier and 4th tier aren't able to do that, despite their other good points. Maybe it's just me, but I find this to be a very good criteria for determining just how useful a character may be. Agreed? Disagree? quote: [B]RE: ROGUE & BISON Rogue and M.Bison have some nasty tricks, but most of them don't work as well against the top tier characters. Again, this is a game of matchups, and if a character matches up poorly against the most common characters, they'll suffer in the rankings. Rogue's game gets stunted by AAAs...[B] I really don't think that Rogue gets shut down that hard by AAA's. Sure, it's an obstacle, but she can get in quite easily with the help of a good projectile assist. And once she does get in, she's really quite tough to get off. She usually either lands her combo or gets a kiss. And once she gets a power-up/speed-up, she becomes lethal. -DFA Posted by Iceman on 05:21:2001 02:03 AM: Dynamite2U: first of all, your biggest problem is trying to make the tiers neat and even. It doesn't work that way. Some games have top tiers of 1 or 2 (MvSF, XCOTA, and CvS come to mind). This makes a lot of problems with your rankings, and makes the look a lot worse then they really are. Agreed, someone must be #7, but I don't think that someone is Spiral. Spiral doesn't have any bad match-ups. Magneto has Strider, Cable has Spiral, Storm, Magneto, and Doom (those last 3 are winnable with assists), Sentinel has Cable (and anyone w/ CapCom assist), Spiral has nobody. Ok, Spiral vs Ruby isn't fun for Spiral. Spiral can win with the right assist, but Ruby does have the edge there. Still, in all around match-ups, IMO Spiral is #1-#2, and I'm not sure how you could put her lower then #4 (behind Storm, Doom, and Sentinel). Psylocke at 13? Thanks for the philosophy lesson. Care to give me a concrete definition of transitional game? I think you overrate Psylocke's usefulness. She's great for Magneto because Magneto will usually be in his opponent's face when he wants to be. Still, for all the characters, Psylocke isn't necessarily better then everyone else. Capt. Commando is much better for Sentinel, Cable, or Blackheart. Sure Psy gives Cable AHVBx3, but your opponent has to get close to get hit by Cable. Last time I checked, Cable does better with his opponent far, not close. Also, Psylocke does nothing to fight "Bombs Away" Doom, War Machine and Iron Man. Then what is Psy is snapbacked in? Capt. Commando and Cyclops are much better as points then Psylocke. Capt. can deal 35%-100% with one throw and Cyclops can Chip. Psylocke fits in better with some characters (MAGNETO), but 13th is very much overrating her usefulness. By your standards, Ken should be no lower then 15th (most invincibility, good range, and nice damage if he gets all 3 hits, who cares that he sucks on point). Silver Samurai and Omega Red is a problem with you sacraficing accuracy for "Neatness". Ken: Agreed, MvC2 is a game of match-ups. Other then Strider/Doom and Blackheart/(Cyclops or Capt. Comm), give me a match up where Cammy doesn't do everything he does as good or BETTER. I don't think you can call a character very high when their one and only tactic is putting them third and pressing the bottom right button. Rogue and Bison, if you don't have an AAA, Rogue is as much of a pest as Magneto. Give Rogue some nice back-up (Doom AAA) and if nothing else, she can get close, drop Doom, and cross up. As a point she is better then Psylocke and anyone you list in 3rd tier spare Silver Sam. Personally, I'm not good with Bison, so I'll have to give you that argument. I know Bone-Wolverine's Stamina. Bonerine is also part of the "80+ pts of damage (on Cable) with no assists and 1 super" club, as well as a card carrying member of the "Can mash my throw for 50 points" club. Guile can do neither. Guile may beat Bonerine by A LOT in stamina, but all that means is it is going to take 15 seconds longer max to chip him out. If Bonerine is blessed with an opertunity, he has the speed and damage dealing capability to use it. Plus his slide assist has more uses then Guile's AAA. What are Anakaris's keep away methods. The most used one I know is the "super jump and rain coffin's" approach. Give me one top tier character this works well on? Cable can get full screen, jump up and AHVB, Storm can Hail Storm, Spiral can appear where ever she wants, Blackheart can...nevermind, Cyclops can get full screen and beam, Strider can throw Outboros rings, then when Anakaris lands "Bye bye Mummy", Magneto should have little problem wavedashing under Anakaris, and jumping after him, or just getting full screen and firing EM-Disrupters, SEntinel is the one top tier who may have trouble with this. If he's not fast enough to dash under and fly up, he has no chance. I don't think Rocket Punches will save him unless he times them well. If I forgot a top tier, he/she/it stops Anakaris also. Juggy has a one hit kill, and his assist is MUCH more useful then Anakaris. (head to head, Anakaris should win though, but over all, Juggy is better). Trone Bonne still rates head of Charlie/Guile. She has better mobility, a much better assist, and I've seen Tron play well against some damn good teams. She's high third IMO, knocking on the second tier's door. Morrigan, she's better then Cap Am. Capt Am is pretty shitty. He has one good combo (low jab, low strong, jab Shild slash, Final Justice). Morrigan is better at speed, and can do something from full screen. Add an assist and Darkness Illusion becomes comboable which puts her ahead of Cap Am in combability. Morrigan's AAA is better. But I do like Cap Am dash assist. Servbot, Sonson, and Chun-Li are definatly better then Hayato. Dan may even be a little better IMO. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:21:2001 03:32 AM: Re: Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 Great input so far, people. Here are my tiers now, with the changes: Top: Blackheart, Cable, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sentinel, Spiral, Storm, Strider 2nd: Cammy, Captain Commando, Colossus, Cyclops, Dhalsim, Iceman, Iron Man, Jin, Juggernaut, Ken, Mega Man, Omega Red, Psylocke (sigh), Rogue, Silver Samurai, War Machine 2.5: BB Hood, (I couldn't bring myself to put her in 2nd tier w/o ever having seen a really good BB) 3rd: Akuma, Anakaris, Captain America, Charlie, Chun Li, Felicia, Gambit, Guile, Hulk, M. Bison, Marrow, Morrigan, Ruby Heart, Ryu, Sakura, Son Son, Thanos, Tron Bonne, Venom, Wolverine, Wolverine (no metal) 4th: Amingo, Jill Valentine, Kobun, Sabretooth, Shuma Gorath, Spider-Man Bottom: Dan, Hayato, Roll, Zangief -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:21:2001 06:13 AM: Re: jill quote: Originally posted by Jaze why isn't everybody giving jill any credit? she can do some serious damage, provided that she has the right assist characters. she is extremely quick, and two of her supers combo very well, which is more than can be said for most characters. she can also force her opponent to alter his strategy if they don't play with a beam character. she can flood the screen with zombies, and then use captain commando's aa assist to keep the opponent away. also, if the character throws out a beam while doing this, she can jump over it, let it hit the zombies, and then punish them with an air combo. Jill really doesn't deserve much credit, that's why!! First of all, anything involving zombies is a BAAAAD idea. There's tremendous startup on those things, and virtually every character in the game can punish her for trying that. If you call out an assist to cover the startup delay, the zombie doesn't get there fast enough to protect the assist, so it's bye-bye assist. Now, as far as her getting in close, she has absolutely nothing that even a mediocre AAA can't stop. She can't even really punish assists if she lures them out. The ONLY decent normal she has is her C.HK sweep. If she does manage to get in and hit you, she has two main problems. First, anything setup with the C.HK can be rolled away from. Second, her combos do just about shit for damage (maybe a little less). She has no realistic way of breaking down traps, other than sacrificing assists. She has nothing on her own to stop rushdown (although Commando AAA is good w/ anyone). She can't bring down Storm or Dhalsim. She takes damage badly. Her assists all suck arse. Her team super is pretty lame, her DHC's virtually non-existent, and her counter is substandard. She has nothing, except some slightly above average speed. -DFA Posted by disgruntled goa on 05:21:2001 11:27 AM: Re: Re: Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Great input so far, people. Here are my tiers now, with the changes: Top: Blackheart, Cable, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sentinel, Spiral, Storm, Strider 2nd: Cammy, Captain Commando, Colossus, Cyclops, Dhalsim, Iceman, Iron Man, Jin, Juggernaut, Ken, Mega Man, Omega Red, Psylocke (sigh), Rogue, Silver Samurai, War Machine 2.5: BB Hood, (I couldn't bring myself to put her in 2nd tier w/o ever having seen a really good BB) 3rd: Akuma, Anakaris, Captain America, Charlie, Chun Li, Felicia, Gambit, Guile, Hulk, M. Bison, Marrow, Morrigan, Ruby Heart, Ryu, Sakura, Son Son, Thanos, Tron Bonne, Venom, Wolverine, Wolverine (no metal) 4th: Amingo, Jill Valentine, Kobun, Sabretooth, Shuma Gorath, Spider-Man Bottom: Dan, Hayato, Roll, Zangief -DFA You should try using BB Hood someday, she might surprise you. You can go the way of BB with her big team super or the other kind of BB. If you're going to go for the big team super, Juggy is a must, it allows the teams super to connect if you manage to land a jab. I strongly recommend using a good anti air assist with hood though, I use CapCom. Besides Jin's anti air assist, is there any other reason he's listed so high? Posted by Mr. E on 05:21:2001 03:40 PM: all I really know are the first tier chars and some of the second tier chars. I'll list what I think are the strengths of each. 1st Tier (in ROUGH best to worst, order) Storm: imho, the best character in the game. She plays the role of pretty much every character type in the game well. Storm can battery and play keep away with her superjump, airdash, lightning strike, and vertical typhoons. She has the second best rushdown in the game, the best DHC in the game, a primetime assist/projectile, and is THE most mobile character in game (close second is dhalsim). She has everything anyone ever needs and very few bad matchups. Sentinel: like storm, his ability to do lots of different things and to do the well make him a juggernaut. Sentinel's a powerhouse at point, combining the best qualities of a giant character (super armor, stamina, power, reach), a beam character (attack speed, assist killing), and a pixie (air mobility). He has a great DHC, and his drones assist is the best at controlling horizontal space. Not to mention, he has wicked traps, and does massive chip damage. His only awful matchup is against commando aaa. Doom: probably the best frustration character in game. At point, he frustrates by playing a top notch keepaway/screen filling game by firing jump lasers and raining photon shots. As an assist, he frustrates by dealing unblockable damage. Doom/BH trap is still a viable and dangerous trap, even 9 months after it got popular. He has a deceptively fast wave dash, and good reach (jump lp extends real far). His throws setup both good mixups and combos. Very mobile, with 8 way air dash and flight mode. He really controls space. Magneto: the absolute king of rushdown. The 3rd most mobile character, imo, his dash speed and ridiculous mixups keep him high in the rankings. He's the hardest character to predict, and the hardest character to keepaway from. His speed forces opponents to pick good aaa. 1 sj hk, airdash downtowards, combo usually means 50% damage from constant resetting and crossups. Triangle jump triangle jump triangle jump. Only problem is, his assist is mediocre at best. Grav xx tempest is still deadly. I don't know anyone who can mash 100% out of it. Cable: AHVB. Nuff said. The best super in the game. Too bad cable's slow as hell, unmobile, and relatively limited to what's directly infront of him. Oh yeah, jumping roundhouse has good priority. AAA are a bit above average. BH: excellent keepaway/batter character. Air demons are hard to see, and relatively safe to throw out. Thank the lord for his airdash. That damn tail of his has amazing priority. He has problems 1v1 with opponents, but that usually ain't too much of a concern. He has a nice chipping super (which is relatively safe), and his assist is great for traps and grounding keepaways. Spiral: THE trap/chipping character. Knives are a great renewable source of block damage, and knife traps are still difficult to get out of. Her teleport and dive make her one of the top 5 most mobile characters. She has no real way of doing decent damage aside from knife trapping, and building meter for the rest of the team. But damn, is she good at what she does. Her projectile assist does massive chipping too. I don't consider Strider, Clops, nor IM top tier. Strider REQUIRES Doom to do any sort of damage. But, he does force you to choose counter characters (felicia/ken). Plus, he's really fast. Damnit, he takes damage like a grade schooler. Clops has a nice aaa, nice sj roundhouse, and a major chipping super, but he's too limited at point. Iron Man's actually on the rise imho. Smart bombs fill the screen nicely, while his infinite builds crazy meter, and does crazy damage (xx Proton Cannon, ouch). He's a bit wieldy, but damn, is he dangerous. Posted by elffzero on 05:21:2001 04:23 PM: i say we switch kobun and zangeif.. for one kobun has more than one obvious weakness.. he has no range, no offensive potential, and no defence. what he does have is decent mobility & keep away potential due to his size, and one semi-exploitable super. - he is part of my Dan/Roll/Kobun team and I love the little guy but i think he's rated too high. Zangeif however has excellent one-on-one potential, however this is of course a team sport, hence 'geif isn't rated too highly in this incarnation. however his assists are underated. his throw assist is the bane of turtles everywhere, it's got that deer in the headlights effect on people. not to mention it's one of the few unblockable assists in the game. and we all know how fun those can be. his ground assist has good screen time vs. hitting animation. fills up good space and sets up for the super well. what 'geif doesn't have going for him is a ranged game & moblity. which is what one needs to survive in this game. also you keep mentioning how a good character will make your opponent change strategies... well most people will prefer to play keep-away w/ 'gief at point... no wait that goes under the taking advantage of exploitable weakness part, my bad i'd have to say his only major downfall is his lack of mobility. if he was spidey/psylocke quick he'd be really scary... and he does have some bonuses against large characters like juggs,hulk,BH,Sent due to his increased range on the SPD i mean Juggy is so wide it's hard to miss. and a spinning lariat stops a headcrush. all i'm saying is that 'geif can easily wipe the floor w/ the bottom tier. he deserves 4th tier. or at least a crown. and maybe a robe, with sparkly jewels and a golden scepter that says simply 'The Czar!" and while i'm at it. i'm having a tough time looking at the bottom tier. what i mean is as far as spectrum of character ability goes the bottom tier has a huge spread. youve got kobun & roll down there and then you move youre way up to hayato who at least has some means of defending himself. and can land some big combos if you need to. then we work our way up to dan & geif, who have at least some useable assists. corner infinites for both. dan at least can move around some and is highly underrated. (ok not really but i had to say that. he is however underrated.) the otoko michi/UFAB is nice for desperation and there are ways to set those up. granted that's not much of a plan. and in conclusion i will continue to lobby for Zangeifs removal from the lower tier, and my arcade play speaks for itself. (Geif kills mall scrubs dead. "...b-b-but he's supposed to suck!" "No My friends it is not the mighty russian who sucks, it is you.") or in the very least i will lobby for a two-part bottom tier. upper bottom tier: Geif, Dan Lower bottom tier: Hayato*,Kobun,Roll *but hayato has potential and may rise to Upper bottom tier one day. Posted by TS on 05:21:2001 05:07 PM: Re: Re: Help me straighten out the tiers for MvC2 quote: Originally posted by DeathFromAbove Great input so far, people. Here are my tiers now, with the changes: Top: Blackheart, Cable, Dr. Doom, Magneto, Sentinel, Spiral, Storm, Strider 2nd: Cammy, Captain Commando, Colossus, Cyclops, Dhalsim, Iceman, Iron Man, Jin, Juggernaut, Ken, Mega Man, Omega Red, Psylocke (sigh), Rogue, Silver Samurai, War Machine 2.5: BB Hood, (I couldn't bring myself to put her in 2nd tier w/o ever having seen a really good BB) 3rd: Akuma, Anakaris, Captain America, Charlie, Chun Li, Felicia, Gambit, Guile, Hulk, M. Bison, Marrow, Morrigan, Ruby Heart, Ryu, Sakura, Son Son, Thanos, Tron Bonne, Venom, Wolverine, Wolverine (no metal) 4th: Amingo, Jill Valentine, Kobun, Sabretooth, Shuma Gorath, Spider-Man Bottom: Dan, Hayato, Roll, Zangief -DFA I think Rogue is a little high, but outside of that, I agree with these rankings more than any of the other ones posted here. Iceman- Regarding Ken and Spiral. Go check out the Viscant vs Duc vid in the multimedia section. Spiral does have weaknesses, and losses. And while here only real pronounced loss is vs Ruby Heart, Storm and her projectile assist can most definitely give her trouble (though in the vid Spiral is all ready gone by the time Storm gets in). I agree though...she's most definitely higher than #7 IMO. And as far as Cammy being better than Ken...Ken is better in just about ANY trap situation IMO, and better vs Blackheart. Otherwise you'd have to give it to Cammy. What exactly would be the 80 point Bone Wolvie combo? Posted by TS on 05:21:2001 05:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dynamyte2U 38.Jill 39.Gambit 40.Felicia 41.Thanos 42.Hulk 43.Morrigan 44.Ryu 45.Spider-Man 46.Amingo 47.Marrow heh heh...just thought it was funny, that IMO everyone else on this part of the list is better than Jill. Possible exceptions being Amingo and Spider-Man. Anyway, would also like to point out to nobody in particular...that the top tier pretty much beats everybody. So if you're saying a character is good, but doesn't beat the top tier...there's a breakdown in communication right there. Throw some strats out there (like for Anakaris for example). Posted by Dasrik on 05:21:2001 06:48 PM: A few miscellaneous note. Re: Morrigan. MvC2 being the team game it is, Morrigan is not a total waste like she was in MvC1. Her runaway game basically has not changed, but in MvC2 it actually means something, whereas in MvC1 she didn't even have a good duo to stall for. If you're holding a lead and fighting aggressive pixie players, you can't ask for someone who has better runaway without having to leave the screen. She can also potentially triangle dash decently (although she is usually forced to attack with fierce-rh), and her beam super makes her a lingering threat when she's the next character in line. Also, her anti-air assist is one of the best AAA after the general AAA kings (CapCom, Cyke, Ken, Cammy, Jin, Psylocke). Doom. I'm having some problems with Doom being placed so high. With wavedashing being so popularized, it's hard to actually pin anyone down with photons by themselves, and just about everyone has ways around jump fierce. And his slowness becomes noticeable when you're trying to gun for positioning. He benefits somewhat from the superjump roundhouse/air dash gambit, but unless you're doing it with Commando or Blackheart that's not going to really do much. He has bad matches versus Sentinel, Magneto and Storm, and even Cable, whom he was thought to solidly beat before, can give him problems now by wavedashing past photons and being able to nullify him in the jump fierce battle. Don't get me wrong, Doom is still top tier, but among the top tier I think he'd probably be closer to the bottom, with Blackheart and Cyclops. Guile. He's a better character than almost anyone will give him credit for, and this is because there are VERY FEW people who actually take the time to find out what Guile has to offer. He can be a good battery - by superjumping with a lot of fierces and an air flash kick in the middle. Also, that air flash kick is excellent, possibly Guile's saving grace. Most people are impotent once a character gets above them in the air, but Guile can nail people there without thinking. His jump roundhouse also has a lot of range and is strong, being able to nail grounded opponents from a longer distance than they might expect. Basically, the people who play Guile and only go for those low short combos are not using him properly, at all. From what I've seen, he's easily top third tier, maybe even approaching second. And I'm totally serious. Bone Wolvie 80-point air combo - jump fierce, fierce tornado claw. Does this actually work? If it does, the timing seems to be strange. Cammy. I only see her assist being good on Doom and the Stark Corps. The angle on that thing is enough so that Mags and Storm barely have to worry about it. Neither does Sentinel, for that matter. Blackheart and Strider both have nothing to fear. Cable's almost never going to be in Cammy range. Ken has the benefit of both being totally invincible and having a more useful angle. I'm near seeing the point of why some Cammy users use her Beta type now. Jill. She has nothing at all to contribute to a team. Nothing. Quite simply, she's in the wrong game. She would have shined in any previous versus game. In MvC2, I personally don't see how she escapes being bottom tier. Hell, even Hayato has a halfway decent assist. Jin. On point, he has strengths that really only come out with the benefit of an assist like B-Doom or Y-Sentinel. His multi-hitting drills have good priority and are hard to escape, he can actually use his Dynamite to escape some traps, and of course there's the Blodia Punch flying screen glitch, which has turned around a match for me more than once. Dan. His launcher beats Magneto's jump roundhouse. Something interesting to note. Posted by jlepore on 05:21:2001 07:20 PM: In regards to everyone dissing on doom, i still think he is a top 5 character, with the emergence of wavedashing it does slow him down a bit, but still when you play doom, i don't care who you are half the time you are blocking photons and half the time you are getting frustrated by the varitey of trap, jumping fierce with blackheart and his photon with blackheart, i think the key is to vary up your attacks with doom sometimes i jump up and throw one photon, sometimes i just airdash, sometimes, fierce sometimes nothing at all, the key is variety to keep your opponent guessing, also if i'm playing doom capcom, just try to wavedash on me and get knocked back by capcoms assist, i think this is a great team on the rise, doom capcom, any opinions???? Posted by cheese_master on 05:21:2001 08:06 PM: Bone Wolvie Combo with 80pts of damage--- c lk, c lk, c fierce (not the slide), qcf p (either one) either the eighth or ninth hit on the combo meter XX qcf PP. If does a good eighty points of damage... but you have to have very... I mean very good timing or they flip out after the qcf p..... which means say bye to Wolvie. Dan ain't all that bad hehe..... as Dasrik said the launcher has descent priority... his anti air is completely invincible every 4... same with his AAA. And his taunts battery like crazy... he might not be too bad if he isn't fighting Cable... oh and he has mad throw priority. Servebot also has potential to kill any character if he has five supers... sounds like the same phrase that people follow up their arguments about Cable and Sentinel. The best part is he doesn't even have to worry about hitting his opponent to do it... deadliest underdog squad... Dan, Servebot, Hulk.... battery with Dan... 5 supers with servebot... blockstun them with Hulk and super for chip to death. if they have storm or Dhalsim... use BH instead of Hulk.... of course this squad dies badly to Cable with any supers. Now enough joking around.... Doom is definitely deadly... but easier to get around... but he should be on this if for any reasons, none more than he is the best Spiral counter at point... and he has a great assist that contributes to the most dangerous trap in the game. While he doesn't own Cable any more... Cable definitely has problems with him and does not own him. Mag, Sent, and Storm have always been problems for him. Dhalsim--- definitely deserves to be in the top tier. He is a proven counter to virtually everyone in the top tier except Sentinel... he has no overwhelming assist... but his point play makes up for that... I argue that Magneto's assist are worse than his... Dhalsim's AAA is a great guard break. His ground type is good for the IM infinite. You do have to have a good AAA to stop Dhalsim, or else his rushdown patterns can keep you pinned and blocking a long time... similar to Magneto. Hulk--- he should stay in the second tier... because he does force you alter your game plan... cuz when your opponent has a good THC... trust me... you are gonna be playing way more carefully with your assists... or they are dead. Try playing Cable against a Magneto/any good THC person/Hulk team... you are not calling out Capcom a single time once they have THC at their disposal... and we all know how successful Cable does against Mag all alone. All Mag only needs three or four super jumps to build three meters. Guile--- while he is good... I see Charlie as a lot better character and better trapping... Charlie also batteries like crazy with that air Crescent kick. Amingo--- He is better than people give him credit for... a good rushdown player can be a terror with some team of Amingo, Sent/Doom, CapCom. Amingo's speed allows someone to play with blockstuns. Also his priority is great. Thats my two cents for now. Posted by Dasrik on 05:21:2001 08:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by cheese_master Guile--- while he is good... I see Charlie as a lot better character and better trapping... Charlie also batteries like crazy with that air Crescent kick. Actually, Guile batteries better. He can stay in the air a long time because of his air flash kick - he gains about half a meter by superjumping with three fierces, air flash, then two more. Charlie also lacks the hugely ranged jump roundhouse that Guile has. What Charlie does have is a slower Sonic Boom, a more damaging super combo, and the cross-up ability of the Moonsault Kick. Posted by StiltMan on 05:21:2001 09:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Doom. I'm having some problems with Doom being placed so high. With wavedashing being so popularized, it's hard to actually pin anyone down with photons by themselves, and just about everyone has ways around jump fierce. And his slowness becomes noticeable when you're trying to gun for positioning. He benefits somewhat from the superjump roundhouse/air dash gambit, but unless you're doing it with Commando or Blackheart that's not going to really do much. He has bad matches versus Sentinel, Magneto and Storm, and even Cable, whom he was thought to solidly beat before, can give him problems now by wavedashing past photons and being able to nullify him in the jump fierce battle. Don't get me wrong, Doom is still top tier, but among the top tier I think he'd probably be closer to the bottom, with Blackheart and Cyclops. I have to agree here. I love Doom, and he's got a lot of tools, but he's fallen a lot from his glory days when he was considered the best character in the game. Aside from Doom/Cable/BH, I can't think of any teams I'd use him on at all in a tournament situation, and I'd probably only use him there as a counter for Spiral. quote: Cammy. I only see her assist being good on Doom and the Stark Corps. The angle on that thing is enough so that Mags and Storm barely have to worry about it. Neither does Sentinel, for that matter. Blackheart and Strider both have nothing to fear. Cable's almost never going to be in Cammy range. Ken has the benefit of both being totally invincible and having a more useful angle. I'm near seeing the point of why some Cammy users use her Beta type now. I don't agree with this at all. Magneto has to worry about it a lot because she comes out fast enough that he has a much harder time getting around it than he would just about anything this side of Psylocke or Jin. There are ways to get around it, but it's hard. Sentinel hates Cammy utterly... about the only places on the screen that are safe from her are at full screen or directly overhead. Getting directly overhead is hard when she's going to cannon spike him out of there if he tries to get there, which leaves a lot of his rush and flying game quite impotent. Storm, I agree... Cammy is no help getting her down out of the air at all. Blackheart, I also agree to a certain point... there are angles where she can hit him if you time it right but it's hard to do. Strider has to worry a bit because Cammy is one of the assists that will go through the orbs, though she won't go through both the orbs and Doom. She's not as good for punishing assists as Commando is, but the general way you should think of her is a Commando with less altitude reach, more priority, and more of an angular rather than a straight-vertical reach. The fact that she can't be stuffed by anywhere near as many things as Commando can has left me with a strong reluctance to use Commando much... it's a pretty rare matchup where I'll find myself getting more done with Commando than I would with Cammy in his place. Storm and punishing people who call their assists too much at close range are about the only ones where I'd call it clear cut in Commando's favor. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:22:2001 01:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by TS Anyway, would also like to point out to nobody in particular...that the top tier pretty much beats everybody. So if you're saying a character is good, but doesn't beat the top tier...there's a breakdown in communication right there. Throw some strats out there (like for Anakaris for example). Think in teams: how often do those top tier characters beat people with the help of 2nd tier characters assists? Pretty often. A number of the 2nd tier characters can beat top tier characters IF they have a top notch assist backing them. (This is the case with Rogue). I think it would be more fair to say that dominant point characters with dominant assists behind them beat everthing. Most of the top tier excel in both departments, so you see them most, but the 2nd tiers certainly can lay down ass-whoopins as well. Anakaris Stuff: I view him somewhat similarly to IM. If he lands a hit, you can expect to lose 60-70% of a lifebar. If he lands Pharoah's curse, you can expect to lose the rest of your team. (Once he lands the initial curse, he can infinite with a number of the assists in the game, by positioning himself in the air prior to calling in the assist.) He has a mediocre keep-away strat which is basically just call assist, SJ.HK, drop a coffin or two, fall, and air dash away from assists, and begin again. Better Anak's will poke w/ his long range normals into projectile assist (similar to Dhalsim), then use the duration of the projectile assist to begin a rushing game. Once he gets in close, he makes nasty blocking patterns, since he has nice low attacks, and more than one viable overhead (back+LK, jump+Pyramid Drop, Idle Hands). He also can do a bit of a crossover w/ SJ, airdash HP, since HP has good vertical range. LP & HP coffin drops are actually usable up close in the air, and his air-to-ground chains are multi-hit, as well. The trick is to make an air chain into assist, which allows him to combo in the Pharoah's Curse. Like I said before, his offensive game is REALLY good. He also is anti-runaway. Since his coffin-drops come from above rather than below, and because Anak isn't visible onscreen while he motions for the coffin, they are harder to avoid than BH's assist. His assists are situationally useful, and his DHC ability is good, as well. Still, his lack of defense (including some rather serious weaknesses) makes him a liability in ANY team, hence the ranking of 3rd tier...if he had a real throw, he would be SOOOO much better. As you can see, I've been fooling with him for a while. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:22:2001 02:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by elffzero i say we switch kobun and zangeif.. all i'm saying is that 'geif can easily wipe the floor w/ the bottom tier. he deserves 4th tier. or at least a crown. and maybe a robe, with sparkly jewels and a golden scepter that says simply 'The Czar!" Hey, I know it's hard to see such a great character be so bad, but you just gotta cope. Zangief doesn't wipe the floor w/ any of the bottom tier characters, not even Roll, sad as it is. Any character can beat Zangeif, just by calling in assist characters, and protecting them. The only character he possibly beats is Hayato, who can't protect his helpers w/o opening himself up for an SPD. At least he's good in CvS (and hopefully CvS2). quote: hayato has potential and may rise to Upper bottom tier one day. ROFL. -DFA Posted by DeathFromAbove on 05:22:2001 02:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by disgruntled goa Besides Jin's anti air assist, is there any other reason he's listed so high? Really good DHC super(s). Combined, this makes Jin very dangerous as a bench character. Enough so that it disrupts whole teams, and alters gameplans. Also, he doesn't really have any in-match issues that make him lose matches for free (even if he isn't the best point character). And if snapped in, he can usually stall long enough to get back to the bench. But he is a bench-only character, for the most part. -DFA All times are GMT. The time now is 01:25 AM. Show all 73 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.